Curse

Epinephrine · Jun 10, 2005, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by eA-Zaku

Girl Gamer (voice chat): Hi guys!
UbEr HyPeR G0D | Cr0nIx ` says: omg its a gurl!!!
Zaku (Counter-Terrorist) says: stfu and get in position
UbEr HyPeR G0D | Cr0nIx ` says: where r u from?!?!?!?!
RiCe Boi S00p3r AzN|G-Un1T says: how old r u??

Lol, so true, so true...

Then again, it is annoying when every girl who joins the server starts in by bringing up their gender or having a name like Girlz Rule.

That said, I know many husband/wife teams in online games, my DoD clan has about 1:7 ratio of women to men, which isn't high, but then again it isn't a genre that women find as appealing I suspect (possibly thanks to conversations like the above). I know the married women in the clan love kicking their husbands' pants

Dirkiess · Jun 10, 2005, 06:07 PM // 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

BS Meter Reading: Off Scale High

Um... right.

I am a male. I can do many things at once. Sorry to blow your theory out of the wate, but *** BOOOM ***

Are there differences; yes.
Are they hard and fast; no.

Scientists have yet to figure out what is environmental and what is genetic... so in your example perhaps it is more prevalent due to environmental factors that women were able to multi-task, but not due to genetics.

Before you open your gob, learn to read. It's been proven and a lot of people have done studies on the things i have been saying.

It's not BS as you have obviously not even studied these type of things. And as I said in my first post, you need an open mind to these types of things.

With regards to what you can multi task. What are you able to do, breath, eat and drink all at once like most men.

Women are true multitaskers and they can take on most men at doing more than one thing at once. If it's not genetics, then it's biological.

There are ways to determine what men and women are truly capable of doing and in which fields, so before you start flaming your arse around get some facts first.

And WTF has it got to do with the environment??

As it proves from this post, you have very little study in this area and hardly any topics have been read on this by you, or you would have broader answers.

If you read what I have written clearly, there is a cross line between what both men and women can do. So, not even going to go into another topic on different sexual preferences, does it just happen or are we born that way. You have an answer for that, I would love to hear it.

Jedsia · Jun 10, 2005, 06:11 PM // 18:11

The enviroment around you? See, I manage a household with 3 boys.

Multi-tasking and learning how to handle the constant chaos is due to my enviroment of living in a household with 3 boys.

But I wouldnt lump all women together and say they can all multi-task better than men. However enivorment (ie, where you live, the things around you and not just the air you breath) DOES have an impact on you and is what I blame my grey streak on

Caco-Cola · Jun 10, 2005, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

And WTF has it got to do with the environment??

Easy. By the old standard a woman was supposed to clean the house and be the home maker.

This included ironing, cleaning, mopping, dusting, making lunch/dinner/breakfast, etc. and so forth.

That kind of environment promotes multi-tasking.

Edit: Baw, I type too slow.

Dirkiess · Jun 10, 2005, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedsia

The enviroment around you? See, I manage a household with 3 boys.

Multi-tasking and learning how to handle the constant chaos is due to my enviroment of living in a household with 3 boys.

But I wouldnt lump all women together and say they can all multi-task better than men. However enivorment (ie, where you live, the things around you and not just the air you breath) DOES have an impact on you.

I totally understand that, but the point i was getting too.

If a woman is reading, watching TV, doing the ironing, cooking all at the same time, she can still understand what is in the book, while keeping track of what is on the television(Who killed who etc), doesn't burn the clothes she is ironing and the cooking is done as well. Then if someone comes in and starts talking to her, she can still do all the other 4 and keep track. That is Multi tasking.

If a man works in the same environment as you have mentioned above, then yes, he can do those things, but if he tries what I just said above, I guarantee that he has to turn the sound down, turn off the Hob, put down the iron and close the book when someone starts talking to him, as he will have no idea what that person was just talking about if he was asked questions afterwards..

Proof of this is the fact, and this is fact, most women and keep 3 conversations going at once, even while talking to each of the ladies in the group about each conversation and still keep up with the others even though not directly talking to each lady.

A man does that, he is like what is everyone talking about. I just lost total focus on that one conversation and now I'm totally lost.

Hence the reason have man to man conversation. each takes his turn to speak.

Jedsia · Jun 10, 2005, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

Easy. By the old standard a woman was supposed to clean the house and be the home maker.

Old standard hehe. Well, yes much has changed. And most households are two income now. But giving the alarming rate of divorce and kids going home to an empty house after school....I find it refreshing that more and more mothers like me are able to make the financial sacrifice and stay home.

Of course, it would cost to put my kids in day care, then after school programs, day camps, etc...and be paying someone else to raise my kids. Why do that if I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself and just have to sacrfice dinners out on the town or splurge expenses. and am lucky enough to be in a marriage of ten + years.

Its sad that there are so many families who cant possibly do this, but I applaud heavily the families who can make this commitment and be home for the kids. Not saying two-income families are cheating their kids or not taking care of them as well.

But as personal preference. And I know many mothers who feel the same.

Caco-Cola · Jun 10, 2005, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Quote:

If a man works in the same environment as you have mentioned above, then yes, he can do those things, but if he tries what I just said above, I guarantee that he has to turn the sound down, turn off the Hob, put down the iron and close the book when someone starts talking to him, as he will have no idea what that person was just talking about if he was asked questions afterwards..

Bullshit.

I can watch TV, play my guitar, talk, and keep up with what's going on in the game (watching the screen mind you, hard to interact while strumming) all at the same time perfectly fine.

Edit: And potentially read a book too though I've never tried it.

Jedsia · Jun 10, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkiess

A man does that, he is like what is everyone talking about. I just lost total focus on that one conversation and now I'm totally lost.

Hehe, men are lost anyway

They just never admit it

Epinephrine · Jun 10, 2005, 06:28 PM // 18:28

Anyone who is saying that they have "proven" that women do X better or men do Y better doesn't understand the issues.

Dirkiess: Having done my masters in neuroscience and studied sexual differences in neuroanatomy, I'd say I have some insight here, and you are wrong. They haven't been able to disentangle environmental and genetic influences in humans because of the impossibility of assigning people to be male or female randomly - you have at heart a problem with the way inferential statistics is used to measure effects. Detecting differences in the brains of women/men and differences in ability doesn't signify that one causes the other, nor that the differences are due to environment. The fact is that the brain is plastic.

If you have the background to discuss it at the appropriate level we can do so, if you are quoting from a tabloid or newspaper it is probably inaccurate - take for example the much publicised story of the research into the size of the hippocampus in London cab-drivers. The newspapers hyped this and pointed out that driving a cab makes your memory better, but while there are hints that it might be true, people are not being randomly assigned to drive cabs for varying numbers of years; the fact that the drivers with the most time behind the wheel have the most developed hippocampi may be due to the fact that those with large hippocampi have better memory and are better at driving a cab, thus enjoy it more and last longer in the job. The equivalent would be to say that playing basketball must make you taller, as many children play basketball, but the ones who go on to play for years are the taller ones! This type of self-selection ruins many experiments - after all, taller kids are likely to be better at basketball, they'll be pushed into doing it by friends and parents etc... While sex related effects have been measured in many areas, and they are correlated with changes in neuroanatomy etc., it doesn't prove that sex causes the differences. Environment and genetics are difficult to disentangle at the best of times, and to make matters worse they interact. Richard Dawkins said that the nature/nurture question was pointless, it's like asking what makes bread, ingredients or cooking? While I can't object to generalized statements about some abilities and sex, they are not defined by sex but by the enviornment and sexuailty in a linked manner, and anyone who tries to tell you that it is solely genetic or solely environmental probably doesn't know what they are talking about.

Quasi-experimental results at BEST provide correlative data; you need experimentation to get beyond that.

Keep in mind that nearly all papers are based on small subsets of the population, that they don't necessarily represent the whole. Psychology has been called the "psychology of the 1st year psychology student" for good reasons; they're the easiest target audience; this affects the way things generalize to the public - after all, there are many groups that are psychologically quite distinct from the average 1st year student. Papers trying to show sexual effects might well be correct, but even then they are generalities, there are individuals spread out around these means and such, and keep in mind that a "significant difference" is mathematical talk, and doesn't mean a large difference, merely one that is statistically significant, which is a function of the size of sample, the variance within and between conditions, and the size of the differences between means.

Now back to women and gaming, and less flaming.

Dirkiess · Jun 10, 2005, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Anyone who is saying that they have "proven" that women do X better or men do Y better doesn't understand the issues.

Dirkiess: Having done my masters in neuroscience and studied sexual differences in neuroanatomy, I'd say I have some insight here, and you are wrong. They haven't been able to disentangle environmental and genetic influences in humans because of the impossibility of assigning people to be male or female randomly - you have at heart a problem with the way inferential statistics is used to measure effects.

If you have the background to discuss it at the appropriate level we can do so, if you are quoting from a tabloid or newspaper it is probably inaccurate - take for example the much publicised story of the research into the size of the hippocampus in London cab-drivers. The newspapers hyped this and pointed out that driving a cab makes your memory better, but while there are hints that it might be true, people are not being randomly assigned to drive cabs for varying numbers of years; the fact that the drivers with the most time behind the wheel have the most developed hippocampi may be due to the fact that those with large hippocampi have better memory and are better at driving a cab, thus enjoy it more and last longer in the job. While sex related effects have been measured in many areas, and they are correlated with changes in neuroanatomy etc., it doesn't prove that sex causes the differences. Environment and genetics are difficult to disentangle at the best of times, and to make matters worse they interact. Richard Dawkins said that the nature/nurture question was pointless, it's like asking what makes bread, ingredients or cooking? While I can't object to generlised statements about some abilities and sex, they are not defined by sex but by the enviornment and sexuailty in a linked manner, and anyone who tries to tell you that it is solely genetic or solely environmental probably doesn't know what they are talking about.

Quasi-experimental results at BEST provide correlative data; you need experimentation to get beyond that.

Now back to women and gaming, and less flaming.

I don't read papers or tabloids in general as most of what is in there is drivel and a waste of my time to read. The only thing of interest to me is the financial sections in those papers.

With regards to where my info comes from, it comes from a renowed public speaker who has been doing studies on this for longer than you have probably been educating yourself and he has spoken for many major corporations world wide and probably has more presence than most of the academics out there.
And various different books from all sources out there. I don't tend to believe most of what scientists say, as they change there minds so often, but everything they say is fact and then it gets changed again.

The reason I said people need an open mind.

As to where this is going, I didn't start the flame war. I was putting my info across from what I have learnt and tested out myself and as a basis on what makes male and female enjoy there gaming experience and to understand why they like certain aspects of gaming.

There are closed minded people out there, and if the scientists don't agree with it, it's not true. Do people still think they landed on the Moon because it says they did? There are lots of things that can be discussed but this was something i wanted to put across for people to think about, but as I have found out in my life, there are closed minds out there everywhere.

Try and teach a Pig to play a Piano, you piss of the Pig and Frustrate yourself.

I've said my piece and believe in what I have read and studied on so far.

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 10, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkiess

Before you open your gob, learn to read. It's been proven and a lot of people have done studies on the things i have been saying.

It's not BS as you have obviously not even studied these type of things. And as I said in my first post, you need an open mind to these types of things.

With regards to what you can multi task. What are you able to do, breath, eat and drink all at once like most men.

Women are true multitaskers and they can take on most men at doing more than one thing at once. If it's not genetics, then it's biological.

There are ways to determine what men and women are truly capable of doing and in which fields, so before you start flaming your arse around get some facts first.

And WTF has it got to do with the environment??

As it proves from this post, you have very little study in this area and hardly any topics have been read on this by you, or you would have broader answers.

If you read what I have written clearly, there is a cross line between what both men and women can do. So, not even going to go into another topic on different sexual preferences, does it just happen or are we born that way. You have an answer for that, I would love to hear it.

What you clearly wrote is false.
Your dismisall of environment clearly shows that your studies of human behavior only went as far as what you wanted to believe.

Men and women are different - I grant that. I just believe the blanket statement you made is trash as most blanket statements are.

As for what I can do...

I can code, discuss politics on with someone in the room and dispense desktop support on the phone. I can also code while getting blasted with what/why questions from my four year old and still pay attention to my wife asking for computer advice while she is surfing the net.

Those examples good enough for you?

Dirkiess · Jun 10, 2005, 06:46 PM // 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caco-Cola

Bullshit.

I can watch TV, play my guitar, talk, and keep up with what's going on in the game (watching the screen mind you, hard to interact while strumming) all at the same time perfectly fine.

Edit: And potentially read a book too though I've never tried it.

You just proved my point. If you could do all those fine, then you wouldn't have a problem watching the TV while you are strumming.

The idea i'm putting across is that all those things can be done and you don't lose track of any of them, no matter the distraction.

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 10, 2005, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedsia

The enviroment around you? See, I manage a household with 3 boys.

Multi-tasking and learning how to handle the constant chaos is due to my enviroment of living in a household with 3 boys.

But I wouldnt lump all women together and say they can all multi-task better than men. However enivorment (ie, where you live, the things around you and not just the air you breath) DOES have an impact on you and is what I blame my grey streak on

There ya go... a women who understood what I meant. The historically typical women had her focus split more often than the historically typical man.

Please NOTE the use of historically typical. There are ALWAYS exceptions.

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 10, 2005, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirkiess

I totally understand that, but the point i was getting too.

If a woman is reading, watching TV, doing the ironing, cooking all at the same time, she can still understand what is in the book, while keeping track of what is on the television(Who killed who etc), doesn't burn the clothes she is ironing and the cooking is done as well. Then if someone comes in and starts talking to her, she can still do all the other 4 and keep track. That is Multi tasking.

If a man works in the same environment as you have mentioned above, then yes, he can do those things, but if he tries what I just said above, I guarantee that he has to turn the sound down, turn off the Hob, put down the iron and close the book when someone starts talking to him, as he will have no idea what that person was just talking about if he was asked questions afterwards..

Proof of this is the fact, and this is fact, most women and keep 3 conversations going at once, even while talking to each of the ladies in the group about each conversation and still keep up with the others even though not directly talking to each lady.

A man does that, he is like what is everyone talking about. I just lost total focus on that one conversation and now I'm totally lost.

Hence the reason have man to man conversation. each takes his turn to speak.

Generalizations suck you shouldn't use them. I can do what you just said with ease - sorry.

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 10, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jedsia

Old standard hehe. Well, yes much has changed. And most households are two income now. But giving the alarming rate of divorce and kids going home to an empty house after school....I find it refreshing that more and more mothers like me are able to make the financial sacrifice and stay home.

Of course, it would cost to put my kids in day care, then after school programs, day camps, etc...and be paying someone else to raise my kids. Why do that if I'm perfectly capable of doing it myself and just have to sacrfice dinners out on the town or splurge expenses. and am lucky enough to be in a marriage of ten + years.

Its sad that there are so many families who cant possibly do this, but I applaud heavily the families who can make this commitment and be home for the kids. Not saying two-income families are cheating their kids or not taking care of them as well.

But as personal preference. And I know many mothers who feel the same.

Bravo!

My wife stays home as well - though if she had been making more money after my daughter turned two I would have.

I often take care of my daugher while my wife gets time with adults in and experience the true need to multi-task with a child pulling on your attention strings. We have another on the way so that need will grow :-)

Cymboric Treewalker · Jun 10, 2005, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Anyone who is saying that they have "proven" that women do X better or men do Y better doesn't understand the issues.

Your experience in this certainly out-trumps mine; but I am glad the time I did study the subject in college was well remembered.

Epinephrine · Jun 10, 2005, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymboric Treewalker

Bravo!

My wife stays home as well - though if she had been making more money after my daughter turned two I would have.

I often take care of my daugher while my wife gets time with adults in and experience the true need to multi-task with a child pulling on your attention strings. We have another on the way so that need will grow :-)

Same here; I actually stayed home with my daughter for a while when my daughter was a year old or so, I was finishing up my thesis and my wife was more able to find work than I was. Once everything was done I got a job as my earning potential is currently higher. We both prioritize having a role in our children's lives and want to provide them a life rich in experiences and family, and while it means that we too skip a few luxuries it isn't a bad life.

Nokomis · Jun 10, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by northernlights

Interesting.

I'm whats considered a 'hardcore' (level capped, MC/Onyx) WoW player thats moved over to GuildWars due to the Drama in WoW.

Blizzard intentionally creates situations (via item drops or otherwise) that force players into different kinds of interactions with each other (for example an item thats great for 3 builds of Class A but 1 build of Class B). There are many other aspects of WoW that generate Drama, and I'm afraid to say there are players that are drawn to that aspect of the game. They feel they are 'contributing to the community' spending their time posting in forums, and generally contributing to esclating drama all over the game.

In my experience most of these 'drama seekers' have been women. Dont get me wrong, some of the most skilled and wise players have been female but it does seem that the 'Drama' aspect of some MMORPGs is the draw for some of them.

Guildwars has far less drama than World of Warcraft, as anyone who has been serious with both games can attest. I welcome and encourage female presence in any game, but please ladies and affeminite men - play the game. You contribute far more to the online community by playing than trolling boards for drama to comment on.

My 2c.

OMIGOD lol. You have got to be joking. You think it is WOMEN who create drama around a game or message board?

It has been my experience that women create drama around a game less than men. It is little boys who act up and play the troll to get attention...little boys from 14 to 44, but little boys nonetheless. I think of them as the "look at ME" crew.

If you don't believe me read through this ONE thread on female gamers on this board and tally up the posts designed to get a rise out of people -- by far most of them are from guys. The women are saying they are here and making thoughtful comments, and many of the guys are making thoughtful contributions, but quite a few little boys are screaming "look at ME!!!" by trying to say something they know will offend or hope will shock.

Too funny that you would write this. It is such a myth that women like drama and men do not. Can't believe you actually belive that lie.

--Nokomis

codemonkey · Jun 10, 2005, 06:56 PM // 18:56

I've met a few actual females gamers in GW, and a few guys who trading items from me "for they're wives" to use when they login. Its a family game

My wife is a Warrior/Elementalist and loves the game. She works part time and while my daughters napping she tries to login and get a few missions done.

So for those women who play video games, hats off to you. I really don't care about the mental reasons why people do what they do, nor the social. Based on what I can see with my own eyes (which may be a narrow view of course) like 90% of my colleges CS majors were male. We had a few girls, most of which were in CS because they're parents told them to take it because you can make a lot of money (this was around '99 - 00 when there were easy jobs in CS). Many didn't like it, but a select few actually had choosen the major on they're own, some even tutored CS classes for others (including other MALES

).

I did take a childrens lit. class in college and I was the only guy in there. Coincidence? I don't think so. However I bet if I took a pole of how many of those women played video games from that class I'd find 1% or so, but if I asked how many have read Greeen Eggs and Ham about 99% would have said yes.

Skewed study I know, but funny just the same.

CodeMonkey
PS: I plan to teach my daughter the ways of video games (probably because she'll see me playing and want to be like Daddy). So in 13 years or so she'll be kicking your rumps in PvP.

Caco-Cola · Jun 10, 2005, 07:03 PM // 19:03

Quote:

You just proved my point. If you could do all those fine, then you wouldn't have a problem watching the TV while you are strumming.

What?

I don't have a problem watching the TV while strumming. I have a problem playing the game while strumming because I don't have four hands.

I don't see how my physical restraint (that is shared with the female of our species, mind you) disqualifies me from not being able to multi-task.

If I could strum and play the game at the same time I would, unfortunately I have yet to learn to type with my toes. Some day though, some day.